What I have learned about firing employees..

Summary

• If someone isn't performing well, first check if it was because of unclear metrics or lack of proper training provided by you. Before firing, consider if the business or you can provide the training needed, or if you need someone who can self-train.
• Consider letting someone go who doesn't align with the company culture. Before firing, make sure you've communicated the cultural issues clearly, giving them a chance to correct their behavior.
• Handle apathetic employees by examining management first. Reflect on whether their attitude is influenced by management or if it's damaging to the team. Some roles may tolerate a level of apathy, but it can't undercut the team's spirit.
• Address employees who thrive on drama and negativity directly and clearly. If after discussion and an opportunity to improve they still cause drama, it might be justified to let them go.
• Always aim to manage people up or out. Clearly set expectations and support them to meet these expectations or allow them to self-select out if they find the expectations unreasonable.
• Be aware of your own patterns in firing too quickly or too slowly. Aim for a balanced approach by acknowledging your tendencies and adjusting your actions accordingly.
• Gather outside input before deciding to fire someone. Consult a mentor and interview team members to get a full picture of the situation.
• Diagnose the root cause of any problem before taking action, whether it's a lack of proper training, unclear expectations, or cultural misalignment.
• Take responsibility for your part in any issues. Start by changing what you can on your side before considering firing someone.
• Protect those you hire by ensuring you do everything possible for their success. If they fail after receiving the necessary support, the responsibility is then on them.
• Keep learning and updating hiring and firing processes to make more informed, empathetic decisions for both the business and the team members.

Video

How To Take Action

I would suggest checking if poor performance is due to unclear metrics or lack of proper training before considering to fire someone. Make sure you've provided clear expectations and support for success. If not, it's time to offer training or find someone who can train themselves.

A good way of dealing with a team member who doesn't fit the company culture is to communicate the issues clearly first. Give them a chance to correct their behavior. If they don't, it may be time to say goodbye.

To handle apathetic employees, look at management's role first. Is their attitude influenced by their leaders? If so, lead by example. If apathy is damaging the team's spirit and can't be shaped by changes in management, moving on from that employee might be necessary.

Address negativity and drama straight away. Talk to the person, offer a chance to change, and if there's no improvement, consider letting them go.

Remember to manage people up or out. Set clear expectations and either help them meet these or allow them to leave if they're not a good fit. Adjust your firing speed—don't be too quick or too slow. Be self-aware and seek balance.

Gather outside input before firing. Talk to a mentor and team members to understand the full situation. Always diagnose problems first and take responsibility for your part. Make sure you've done all you can to support the employee's success.

Keep learning and improving your hiring and firing processes. This helps you make better decisions that respect the business and the people who work with you. Make sure every person you hire has every chance to succeed. If they still don't, the responsibility shifts from you to them.

Quotes by Leila Hormozi

"There's no way to get the experience of being a CEO without doing it"

– Leila Hormozi

"I have really tried to build up thinking frameworks for hiring and firing because I know how emotional it is"

– Leila Hormozi

"You have to do right by all; you have to do right by the person you're interviewing, you have to do right by the company, you have to do right by the team"

– Leila Hormozi

"I have a low tolerance for this kind of role amongst the team because I think that a lot of the times it actually really dampers the entire culture for all the A players on the team"

– Leila Hormozi

"You want to manage up or out"

– Leila Hormozi

Full Transcript

want to share with you is the answer to the question should i fire them this is a question that i get very frequently from you know leaders in my own companies as well as some of the portfolio companies that we work with which is trying to understand why somebody isn't working out well for the team what are they doing what's this person doing et cetera et cetera and this is obviously if you're watching the senior business owner you know how emotional this is and i remember my first time having to fire somebody and it was terrible it was back when alex and i had first started gym launch and we were actually sending sales guys out to the physical locations like we had been doing for the past 11 months and we said you know here's the metrics here's the kpis go launch these gyms and of course i've never done anything like this my life before i have no experience so hiring these people i felt really good about it but at the same time i knew i don't know what i'm doing and so one of them happened to be my friend from high school and he had had a stable job since high school and out of college and i convinced him to leave that job and come do this with us and in the first four days he went zero for 23 in sales of the new location despite the training that we gave and you know the rest of the team actually did fairly well from the beginning there were six guys that we sent out at that point in time and you know alex and i looked at each other we were like it's just not cutting it you know like we we've got to go fly out there we've got to go save this gym and this just isn't going to work and alex looked at me and i remember he was like well you know we've got to do now and i was like oh my god and i felt terrible i remember sitting in the car with him and i did it in the car and i just had this feeling within my stomach i'm sweating i'm like on the verge of tears i feel terrible i'm like i just had this guy quit his job but like he's just not right for the role and the terrible part was that i knew i was like i'm also so inexperienced that i don't even know how to train him better than i am now and i'm sure that's half of what it is and i felt really bad about that but and i i'm sure a lot of you can relate to this because the irony of this is is that the reason that there are so many firing and hiring mistakes made is because you as the ceo there's no way to get the experience of being a ceo without doing it right like you could have mentors you can read books but like until you do it you don't really know what it feels like and while you're doing it much of the time the mistakes you make with people it's kind of one of these situations where you're like listen i actually made the mistake in the beginning by hiring you or i made the mistake by not knowing how to train you and you don't even know how to train yourself and so here i am now i have to fire you because i own the company so i'm not getting fired and then like any other situation a leader in that position would be the one that's at risk of losing their job but because you own the company you don't lose your job you just feel like crap and then you go on to the next situation and you take what you've learned you try to iterate from there but nonetheless it feels pretty crappy and so that's why i have really tried to build up thinking frameworks for hiring and firing because i know how emotional it is that's typically why it's not done well and so i think a lot of the times people think that if you are unemotional around hiring and firing that you'd have less empathy or for some reason you care less and i'm like are you kidding me i care more because i'm willing to put my emotions on the back burner so i can make the right decision for this person this job this company right you have to do right by all that you have to do right by the person you're interviewing you have to do right by the company you have to do right by the team and so that being said i want to share a couple of different um reasons why you would consider letting someone go as well as reasons why maybe you shouldn't let them go the first one is a very obvious one which is somebody's not meeting performance standards right so say that they have a quote at a hit they have a certain number of something to accomplish in the day they have a project they are supposed to hit mile markers of and they are just not meeting it well you could consider firing them but the i would say contingency is did you provide clear metrics right did you provide proper training when i think through something like that i think okay did i provide the proper metrics did i provide the proper training and then the even bigger question to that is is my business and am i in a spot right now where i can provide the proper training and metrics or do i need to hire somebody who can operate without clear metrics and training and they can train themselves right so there's almost two layers to it right because in the beginning especially if you have no experience in a in a role right so say that you have zero experience in finance you're hiring on something with someone for accounting and then they're messing up all the accounting and you're saying well obviously i didn't train them because i don't know accounting but i also hired someone who couldn't train themselves because they don't have the experience and so then it comes down to maybe they're not meeting performance standards maybe you didn't put the performance standards or the training in place but maybe that's because you actually just hired the wrong person because you're not thinking through do i have the ability to train this person or do they need to be able to train themselves so that's the first one that i see and i like to think through on both of those levels because it's relevant you know sometimes it's that the person's not meeting standards but a lot of the times it's that you're not thinking through before you hire someone do i need someone who can train themselves or can i hire someone who i'm able to train and i think a lot of times people just like to be cheap and try and hire someone who is lower level who needs training and they cannot give training and then they end up firing the person the second point for consideration when you're looking at if you should let someone go or not would be tearing down the team or not um representing the culture that you you know aspire to have in the company right and so the question for this one right is if you're like you have someone on the team they're not you know say abiding by the values they're not representing the culture well they seem to be kind of maybe everyone else on the team represents the culture well and then they kind of take it in a different direction the question that i would ask you is one how did you filter through when you hired for this role and when you were hiring did you see red flags you know like how do you filter for culture right and then the second piece to that is have you told them that they are you know deviating from the culture and they're not doing a good job representing it amongst the teammates because a lot of the times when someone tells me they're like oh they're just a bad culture fit i'm like well you have to tell them that to give them the chance to improve because maybe they don't know that they're coming off that way and personalities are not fixed people can change their behavior if the incentive is strong enough and if they really respect you they really want to be at the company they just might change their behavior and so in that situation it's worth looking at is this person right for the job but the first question to ask yourself is have i expressed to them that they are acting in a way that i do not want to be had on this team the third piece is when you have someone who's apathetic right they don't care about the customers the company or anything else and it's just kind of like a clock in clock out type of person i have a low tolerance for this kind of role amongst the team that i have because i think that a lot of the times it actually really dampers the entire culture for all the a players on the team however i think that the question that you have to ask yourself is if you are their manager are you acting apathetic or if they have a different manager rather than yourself is that manager apathetic and so you always want to look back again like i said to the root cause when you're looking at should i fire them or should i not and then you have to really look and say if i change the root cause will this fix itself right because a lot of times people will say you know my team's not engaged my team is just aloof etc etc and i'm like well of course they are look at you you don't care about your company you're not involved it's a you know lifestyle business for you and it's not something that you're interested in working harder for and so think about that and take it into consideration then also ask yourself okay well if the reason that you have the business is for it to just support a lifestyle that you have then maybe you just need to adjust your expectations of the people that are working in the business to an extent right the other side of that is there are some people who are truly just apathetic they do not view work as a place where they gain purpose or meaning i think it is ever declining right now i think more people want purpose and meaning from work but there are people who don't they just want to clock in and out and in that case i would ask myself or i would ask you to ask yourself you know is this a role where this is detrimental to the team if this person is apathetic and when i say that it's because there are some roles where i think that people just are naturally who are inclined to take them are a little more apathetic because of the nature of the role and so it is something worth considering when you're asking yourself you know this person had lacks engagement is that important to this role or is it not and is it harming the team or is it not and so it's worth considering right the fourth piece to take into consideration um when you're looking at should i fire them right or not is a person who thrives on drama right they just seem to thrive on negativity and this is often the kind of person who likes to tell everyone hey you know i said that that wouldn't work it didn't work told you so this and that like they just continuously like to point out the things that they apparently have said ahead of time they like to always tell their boss you know i said that this was gonna happen this always happens like this sucks and they just have a lot of resentment towards decisions that are made because they tend to always look on the negative side and the irony of that is in 100 scenarios 99 of things don't work out right and so it's easy to be that person and to say oh i was always right because you're defaulting to the negative but you do miss out on that one out of 100 where you're hitting a home run right and that person will always miss out on that one out of a hundred and so in a scenario like this where i have something like that on the team where they just completely thrive on drama which i've had a few of these kinds of people the first thing that i ask myself is have i expressed this to them clearly and when i say clearly i mean like how i am expressing it in this video is how you express this to them hey you know i want to give you some feedback today it's pretty important etc etc refer to my feedback video on having hard conversations and you would basically phrase it and say hey you seem to thrive on drama and this is my observation and it makes me uncomfortable and i don't feel like it's productive for the team and so i think this is actually a pretty big deal and so i want to understand do you know that you act this way you have to give them the chance to improve right now if you make some aware someone aware of these behaviors and you put a plan in place and they still don't improve is absolutely something that i would say is worth considering um letting someone go and departing ways from them when you're handling it and so if you're thinking of these four different things right it's like should i fire them should i not fire them they kind of all come down to how you handle the situation right because how i look at it is i have to know that i've done everything on my side to ensure that this person has the 100 chance to succeed and it is not me who impedes on their success right now how do i do this the first way is i always think you want to manage up or out and so when you are coaching someone because you're not sure if they should be on the team or not i think about it like this my outcome is either i coach them up and they rise to the occasion or i coach them out and they cannot tolerate you know the requests i'm making of them because it's just very outside of their comfort zone it's very outside of what they want for themselves or value at work that they decide to leave on their own that is always my goal because i'm like i have to just set absolute clear expectations for what i need from this person and if they don't want to meet them that is their choice but i have to be able to verbalize that to them and have a consistent conversation you know multiple times a week until the issue is resolved and a lot of people aren't willing to do that because it's very uncomfortable and it's time consuming but it is the right thing to do the second thing um that you want to do is really a mental process which is becoming aware of your patterns right and the reason that i say this is because i think we all have a pattern of either firing too quickly or too slowly and you have to know which end you air towards so that you can kind of balance yourself to come to the middle because that's a form of all or nothing thinking and that's usually not productive in the workplace and most of the time when you're looking at letting someone go it's both you and them and so you however are typically the boss and so you need to take the first step towards explaining what's going on and trying to amend the situation and making them aware of it right and so the more aware you are of how you act in these situations the more you can catch yourself and say hey i'm doing that again like i just want to go fire them rather than actually have a conversation which is what a lot of people do they're like i would literally rather fire somebody than have a hard conversation for three weeks in a row most people do that especially new business owners people with really fast growing businesses they want to do that because it's such a headache to take care of it and so you don't want to do that you will get a bad reputation i have made that mistake in the beginning i fire people way too quickly in the first year of business it was terrible right and so do not make that mistake the third piece to this when you're handling the situation is that you want to get outside input right i think that making an isolated decision kind of like in your lab or in your corner by yourself typically doesn't serve you because a lot of the times especially if you're not you don't have a ton of experience with this is that you're going to be very emotional about it and so i think the more information the better the way that i would go about gathering information is one of two things i would either one go talk to a mentor that i have and ask for their insight on this situation right because if it's like somebody comes to talk to me i can tell them right off the bat like oh it's that bucket of problem or it's that kind of person or it's probably this have you asked this have you done this right and i can easily help them solve it and so go to a mentor talk to them about it the second thing is to gather intel from the team right and so that requires essentially interviewing people that work with that person on a consistent basis and so a lot of the times what i notice is people will feel a certain way about a teammate and they will think oh well i should just continue to tolerate it because i'm probably the only one who notices and then they go and they interview everyone else that works with them and they find out that everyone's terrified of that person they're not doing their best work they feel incredibly pressured they're very uncomfortable and so interviewing people that they work with is incredibly important and there are ways that you can do it which i can talk about in another video that are appropriate and do not um expose that person too much because obviously there is the chance that you know they should still remain on the team and it is not something that you want to do to damage their reputation so all in all when it comes to deciding should i fire them or should i not it is always diagnosing the root cause of why this problem exists before you take action and i think that a lot of the times what happens is that we feel especially in the beginning and i remember this so clearly is i would feel so uncomfortable with having a person on the team and when i took a step back and i gained more experience i realized that discomfort was discomfort i felt with myself because i was lacking integrity by not telling them directly what they were or were not doing to meet the job requirements and i was actually just it was almost like creating more anxiety out of avoiding the anxiety of having those conversations and so i think if you want to clearly answer the question of should you fire them or should you not you have to be able to take an approach that is not all or nothing but it's to what extent to what extent is this my fault to what extent is this their fault to what set is this just a consequence of the position that we're in right now right it's just a kind of just a fact of business with the kind of business we're in with the time we're in right and so those are all things that i take into consideration when i'm deciding if someone should be kept on the team or not and i would say that i always start with what i can do differently first and so even if that takes a little bit longer i'm okay with that because i want to know that i did everything in my power to ensure that person was successful and if they're not then it is on them it's on me so i hope this video was helpful i will definitely make more videos on departing ways with employees because i think it's important to not only help business owners understand and become more aware of how to hire and fire appropriately but also to protect the people that you're hiring because they're really trusting you when they take a job with you that you're going to take care of them that you're gonna have a place for them um and though everyone's an adult i do think that if we don't do our diligence on our side we're really not doing right by the people that we hire so if you like this video go ahead hit subscribe and i will see you in the next one